Curse

EragonSorceror · Mar 21, 2010, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

.......in most cases its(FoW armor) not even the most attractive, and just serves for losers with no self-esteem to get their e-peens stroked online.....

Exactly my point. If FoW armor is easy to get, there is no point for it to exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

For example, it USED to be profitable to solo everywhere, until loot scaling was implemented. It was such a terrible idea, and a lazy method of balancing party composition and player builds. It makes logical sense that if a player is able to solo a monster that is designed for a full party to kill, then he/she should receive the same drops as the full party. The fact that monsters know how much cash to leave out of their wallets when a group zones in is kind of ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

GW should NOT be Grind Wars, but even a couple in this short thread alone have stated that to acquire stuff you need to farm, the exact opposite stance that GW was advertised as!

I really don't understand this. You are anti-farming, but you're great idea for fixing Guild Wars is.....to repeal loot scaling? Also, you care about the lore of monsters drops changing based on party members, but you think that Charr should drop the remains of ghosts(ectos)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

if 4 people take 1 hour to beat an area, then a party double the size (8) should take half the time (30 minutes) to do the same. I thought it was obvious, but whatever. It has nothing to do with difficulty, I meant more of a "mode split" where the 8 man group can do double the runs of the 4 man group, but the area is still "doable" by the 4 man.

Makes sense to me, but I don't think anyone was debating that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Lastly, its just not cool to do all of Slaver's Exile or UW and come up with a couple rubies, diamond and onyx.

True, but the solution to that is fixed rewards, not more rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

If some noob who has never done FoW successfully accomplishes a speedclear and gets a bunch of merch fodder, how is that an incentive to keep playing?

Again, you are supposedly anti-farming yet you are worried about the speed clearers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

but even a couple in this short thread alone have stated that to acquire stuff you need to farm, the exact opposite stance that GW was advertised as!

I'm pretty(100%) sure that this is directed at me so I'm going to quote it twice

. I was saying that if someone wants to accumulate stacks of ectos or to look rich(ahem, "good") than they should be farming. I don't think this is unreasonable but, again, feel free to enlighten me. As to GW being advertised as free of grind, ArenaNet has also added items with less than a 2% drop rate to hard to get to dungeon chests. Do they really expect people to obtain a BDS without farming?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Again, for the ADHD crowd, I'm not advocating FoW armor for all,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

a player being able to, say get a set of FoW armor without having to farm areas, a process that would take years. This is something that could be implemented now, and I can't think of a reason why anyone would complain barring the uber-rich power traders with stacks of ectos, but no one really cares about those jerks anyways!

If you don't want everybody to be able to get FoW armor and you don't want anybody to have to farm for it, then how is someone going to get it? Powertading? Oh wait...High end PvP? And just for the record, I am definitely not an "uber-rich power trader"(I have ~100k to my name and that is the most I have ever had at one time) and I don't really think I am an "elitist jerk complaining about FoW armor being available to the serfs" as I don't own a set myself.

The Drunkard · Mar 22, 2010, 12:38 AM // 00:38

This really belongs in the suggestion forum.

Anyway, I am shocked from reading some of the responses in this thread. Does anyone remember the pre-nightfall market?!? Money was readily available, but items were extremely expensive, so the average joe could easily get 15k armor sets but would have to work for the expensive items such as FoW and the IDS. Nowadays people have to farm one way or another to get any sort of revenue-playing through a game completly only nets you about 30k.

There are a couple of reasons why the market is in such a poor state right now, namely:

Age- the game is old and people have invested a lot of time in getting the items they want; hence the small market for non-high end goods.

Inscriptions- Killed the market for non-high end goods. Items were generally worth a lot more with perfect mods because they were so hard to get. As a result, Anet had the brilliant idea of dumbing down the game so that everyone could didn't have to invest any time in getting decent weapons. Weapons are now priced by their skin, not their mods.

Lootscaling- Reduced the amount of cash that people could accumulate for going out and killing monsters. Instead of properly balancing an area so people couldn't farm 30 monsters within two minutes, Anet took the lazy route and nerfed everything. Now if you want money from regular farming, it's the few locations (raptors, vaettir, nephilia, etc) that you flock too.

Back to your suggestion- I don't Anet should follow your idea for GW1, maybe for Gw2 because the economy will never become like it was a few years ago. These are the ideas that I have for GW2 to keep the economy from falling apart so quickly:

No lootscaling- It's not hard to change a monster's skillbar or the amount of monsters that spawn, just put some effort into spawn locations.

No inscriptions- Dumbing down the game always ruins the game. See WAR online's crafting system for a clear example. If you want mods to be available for people who don't want to farm hours for it, make it a customizable option requiring a sum of gold and materials.

Better rewards for completing missions- 1k for completing the a mission isn't a suitable reward for playing it again- more gold, trade-ins (such as imperial commentations), or crafting materials would be a better incentive for people to play missions instead of trying to farm areas.

Goldsinks for elite areas- I like the 1k requirement for fow+uw because it brings a high risk-high reward element to the game-keep it.

I'm leaving out SCs and dungeons from this response because I'm not sure what they're going to do in GW2.

Flame on.

Mireles · Mar 22, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Reading comprehension is your friend. Seriously, its amazing that in a post that addresses reward and play balance, that even the mention of ectos brings out the elitist jerks crying about the economy and FoW armor being available to the serfs.

In all your obscenities you failed to consider the economics of the situation. which exits if you want them to exist or not.

Increasing drop rates or rewards at all will drop the price so the value in gold of your increased drops/rewards will remain the same as the "lesser" rewards given now. By increasing supply more demand will be fed... when demand lowers price will decrease because there will be more competition to sell your drop/reward. The only reason items are worth what they are is due to the degree of difficulty they are to obtain. Which keeps this game alive (kinda) because it spurs competitiveness.

Whats proposed here is almost to give people everything they want, which would make everything nearly valueless... making gold worthless... destroying the economy... and when most players have everything no competitiveness will exist... so whats the point?

So maintaining a good game economy is not "elitist" its common since.

Get educated not emo.

R_Frost · Mar 22, 2010, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

This really belongs in the suggestion forum.

Anyway, I am shocked from reading some of the responses in this thread. Does anyone remember the pre-nightfall market?!? Money was readily available, but items were extremely expensive, so the average joe could easily get 15k armor sets but would have to work for the expensive items such as FoW and the IDS. Nowadays people have to farm one way or another to get any sort of revenue-playing through a game completly only nets you about 30k.

There are a couple of reasons why the market is in such a poor state right now, namely:

Age- the game is old and people have invested a lot of time in getting the items they want; hence the small market for non-high end goods.

Inscriptions- Killed the market for non-high end goods. Items were generally worth a lot more with perfect mods because they were so hard to get. As a result, Anet had the brilliant idea of dumbing down the game so that everyone could didn't have to invest any time in getting decent weapons. Weapons are now priced by their skin, not their mods.

Lootscaling- Reduced the amount of cash that people could accumulate for going out and killing monsters. Instead of properly balancing an area so people couldn't farm 30 monsters within two minutes, Anet took the lazy route and nerfed everything. Now if you want money from regular farming, it's the few locations (raptors, vaettir, nephilia, etc) that you flock too.

Back to your suggestion- I don't Anet should follow your idea for GW1, maybe for Gw2 because the economy will never become like it was a few years ago. These are the ideas that I have for GW2 to keep the economy from falling apart so quickly:

No lootscaling- It's not hard to change a monster's skillbar or the amount of monsters that spawn, just put some effort into spawn locations.

No inscriptions- Dumbing down the game always ruins the game. See WAR online's crafting system for a clear example. If you want mods to be available for people who don't want to farm hours for it, make it a customizable option requiring a sum of gold and materials.

Better rewards for completing missions- 1k for completing the a mission isn't a suitable reward for playing it again- more gold, trade-ins (such as imperial commentations), or crafting materials would be a better incentive for people to play missions instead of trying to farm areas.

Goldsinks for elite areas- I like the 1k requirement for fow+uw because it brings a high risk-high reward element to the game-keep it.

I'm leaving out SCs and dungeons from this response because I'm not sure what they're going to do in GW2.

Flame on.

lots of good points.

yes the economy will never be back to what it was before nightfall. Anet killed the market on alot of skins for high end non-inscriptable weapons when Anet made inscriptable versions of them.

but thinking back to many changes and updates, we have gotten what we have asked for mostly while anet has ignored alot of ideas to fix some poorly done changes.

-heros came due to everyone complaining how useless henchies were and how bad their skill bars were. finally last year they changed the henchie bars.
-inscription system came due to people wanting to change the base mods on their weapons
-loot scaling came as one of many attempts to deal with bots and also get people to team up again with real people after heros started turning the came into a single player game while people complained they couldnt find groups to play with

we got stuff last year that for a long time Anet said there was no way it would ever happen. name changes, more storage, sex changes, makeovers and equipment packs. if those things were possible after years of saying they werent, wheres our 7 heros? which next to an auction house, is probably the most wanted update.

Targren · Mar 22, 2010, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

So maintaining a good game economy is not "elitist" its common since.

Only until you realize that the common definitions of "economy" do not apply in a world with infinite supply and a godlike organization that can and does reorganize the market by fiat. Regardless of stupidly-miniscule drop rates, the underworld will never "run out" of ectos, CoF will always have one more chalice, Kepkhet has an army of gnomes to constantly churn out new foci, etc...

The anti-farming code and loot scaling can only reasonably be viewed as poor solutions to the botting problem, because the existence of FoW armor is one of the oldest example of a pro-farming attitude (to say nothing of more recent additions like Nick, stupidly-low drop rates on eotn trophies (chalices/relics particularly)). It bit us all in the ass in that it messed with the human farmers, giving the botters less drops over time as well, but increasing the demand and thus the price.

On one point, I agree with those who say that ArenaNet has damaged the in-game "economy." There is an undeniable element of favoritism in Anet's interference with the "economy" of the game, and there is no way the game can have anything resembling a healthy economy in the face of it. Price resets and hard-coded price floors at the "volatile" traders were added to quiet the wails of the vocal minority for whom the game currently exists only as "Kamadan and the various areas that don't matter" to play "Menagerie Tycoon", and to the detriment of the majority of the non-powertrading players.

So yes, the "economy" in GW is not good, but changing to the way that the "good economy" crowd generally suggests would not be any better. Inscriptions addressed a flaw (partially) that had been overlooked/ignored: part of the logic of the max weapon/armor system was to prevent the game from being gear-based. It worked against the marketeers but was a net gain for the playerbase as a whole. The results will be similar to any of the "good economy" claims.

Guild Wars is beyond redemption at this point. ANet (the organization, not necessarily the individuals) doesn't care about the game and the merchant princes are used to getting their own way.

For GW2, assuming it ever sees the light of day, ANet will need to decide if they want to retry their doomed mercantile simulator approach, or address the issues and learn to let the whiners whine.

Quote:

Get educated not emo.

Indeed.

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 22, 2010, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

stupidly-low drop rates on eotn trophies (chalices/relics particularly)).

Come now, are you trying to tell us that a non-dyeable blindfold isn't worth anywhere up to 150k? Nawwwwww...

Targren · Mar 22, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Come now, are you trying to tell us that a non-dyeable blindfold isn't worth anywhere up to 150k? Nawwwwww...

I wasn't thinking about the gold value. I was thinking that it's not worth anywhere near clearing CoF 150 times or more(If I'm lucky, I get 1 chalice every 3 runs or so)

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 22, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

I wasn't thinking about the gold value. I was thinking that it's not worth anywhere near clearing CoF 150 times or more(If I'm lucky, I get 1 chalice every 3 runs or so)

That too, lol... TBH, post nerf, dunno about you, but the 3 or 4 thousand(At least) times that I've done CoF the fast way, is almost a dead sure guarantee that I will NEVER go anywhere near that dungeon. Ever ever ever ever again..

Wonder how many others feel that way, and about how many dungeons..

It's heart-breaking to feel that way about a game you love, but that's just the way that aNet want it, so no use griping. Boredom is certainly the order of the day..

Targren · Mar 22, 2010, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

That too, lol... TBH, post nerf, dunno about you, but the 3 or 4 thousand(At least) times that I've done CoF the fast way, is almost a dead sure guarantee that I will NEVER go anywhere near that dungeon. Ever ever ever ever again..

Wonder how many others feel that way, and about how many dungeons..

It's heart-breaking to feel that way about a game you love, but that's just the way that aNet want it, so no use griping. Boredom is certainly the order of the day..

Agreed. After I got my LMotN, The only dungeon I'd ever set foot in again is Fronis. And that's a maybe. EotN isn't as "replayable" as they'd like.

FoxBat · Mar 22, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

The more fundamental problem is that GW doesn't have compelling loot to drop. There is hardly any progression beyond level 20 in terms of item upgrades, the only thing anyone cares about is rare skins, which by definition you can't get very often or they cease being rare. Any rare skins that drop with inferior mods will be merched compared to your current easily obtained but drab perfect gear, so there's no gradual progression up to the "best", rather a sudden leap when you get lucky or save up a ton of cash; even more so with inscriptions now because there's a much stricter cutoff between useable (max stats with insc) and not. Armor works the same way with most people farming a complete ecto set and then buying their obsidian at once so everything matches. If you just give people this stuff fast/easy, that's just all the sooner they quit the game because they will soon have "best" everything; but give it to them slower then that, and they have very little feedback about their progress and long droughts with no exciting items to upgrade.

Making items drop more or less doesn't fix this fundamental issue. It's just one of the tradeoffs of GW1's "skill>time" model, which I predict they will diverge from in GW2.

Mireles · Mar 22, 2010, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Only until you realize that the common definitions of "economy" do not apply in a world with infinite supply and a godlike organization that can and does reorganize the market by fiat. Regardless of stupidly-miniscule drop rates, the underworld will never "run out" of ectos, CoF will always have one more chalice, Kepkhet has an army of gnomes to constantly churn out new foci, etc...

Ur right you cant apply real world definitions of economy to this game.... but they are still related none the less... Supply doesn't equal the amount of an item in existence in a MMORPG. Since there is no way to tell how much items are in existence true supply is unknown. The only gauge we have to tell what the rate of creation is doing is the rare material trader quotes going up or down (IE ectos). With this gauge it offers seller and buyers a immediate transaction price and with that leverage to buy/sell around that price... If a seller or buyer can't the price they want they use the trader. For items without this gauge price would be totally dependent on the amount of competition there is to buy or sell an item.... which is also related to the properties of supply and demand (IE armbraces). Therefore (Supply = the rate of creation - the rate of consumption)(IE items destroyed by creating armor, ect). Demand still applies in its real world definition because were all still people.

This is why we saw such a sharp drop in price of shards and armbraces post-dhumm. Speedclearers moved to Fow and DoA thus drastically increasing the rate of creation (supply) of their respected items.

We saw ectos skyrocket because of this nurf lowered the rate of creation (supply) and demand was highly increased by high anticipation of ectos being harder to farm post Feb 25th update...

After the update this anticipation dissolved lowering demand along with price.

So in conclusion, the value of reward/drops of playing elite areas are determined not by people or ArenaNet. ArenaNet can only control the supply ceiling (the highest point something can be produced). Us the players as a whole control demand and the supply rate itself by farming. Together this determines value (price)....

If you want your drops to be worth more... stop farming them, stop speed clears... you cant make items easier to get and retain a rare value... sorry you can't escape economics when there are people involved.

BBA in Accounting ftw. stay in school kids

Riot Narita · Mar 22, 2010, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Before loot scaling:
-some solo farmers got stupidly rich.
-Power traders got stupidly rich.
-Gold sellers had it easy, since it was easy to amass plenty of gold using solo-farming bots.

Did I feel like the game had problems at that time? No.

I didn't farm at that time, I've never been a power trader, and I've never bought gold. Drops were fine for me, I made plenty of money for my purposes as a casual player. If I wanted to work for something expensive, it took time, but wasn't a big deal.

After loot scaling:
-Solo farmers got hit.
-Power traders were unaffected, business as usual.
-Gold sellers got hit.

What was the purpose of loot scaling? Wasn't it really just to hit gold sellers and bots? Which it did... but it also meant that the best way to get rich, became power trading. ie. by standing in town spamming, and not "playing the game"

What if they did remove loot scaling? The game and its economy would be back to what it was before... big deal, we'd simply go back to a time when I (personally) didn't see any problem. Would it be so bad? The numbers would change, but I figure the relative values and time needed would stay pretty much the same. BUT people could get rich by farming again ("playing the game"), as well as power trading.

The problem is, A-Net would have to come up with a real solution to bot farmers. Onoes.

I also note that account theft probably wasn't so attractive to gold sellers before loot scaling and anti-farming nerfs...

Gun Pierson · Mar 22, 2010, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Anet really is the not so bright and not so creative student of the class when it comes to creating exciting loot and mechanisms.

GW deteriorated on that part over the years. Some good efforts were made the first years like the weapon skin contests, and afterwards the addition of the deldrimor weapons sets etc but overall this game has a real problem concerning loot and rewards. The fighting of bots resulted in a very unrewarding game.

The only advice I can give you and Anet is to check out other games and their mechanics like the revolutionary weapon generator in Borderlands or Torchlight etc.

No hope for GW I'm afraid, they just suck at it.

Targren · Mar 22, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Ur right you cant apply real world definitions of economy to this game.... but they are still related none the less... Supply doesn't equal the amount of an item in existence in a MMORPG. Since there is no way to tell how much items are in existence true supply is unknown. The only gauge we have to tell what the rate of creation is doing is the rare material trader quotes going up or down (IE ectos).

supply v = ((r-s)/t * p * tf)

r = drop/creation rate
t = time unit (minute/hour/day/etc...)
p = people farming
tf = time farming per person
s = removal rate (armor/gloves. player-to-player sales do not remove items from the game. Selling to volatile traders does not apply either due to the fact that they are also not removed or created, according to explanations of how the volatile traders work)

If one defines "t" as "server lifetime", then no item in the game has r=0 (proof is trivial to the point of being vacuous). Even items that no longer drop, such as vampiric weapons in pre-searing, will have an r that approaches, but never reaches, 0. When the last vampiric weapon in pre is removed, (r-s)/t *will* equal 0 (since r=s).

Worth mentioning is that tf is O(t), since you cannot farm more than 100% of the time.

The term (r-s)/t is the change over time t in the item supply.

Using ectos as a good example (since you did):

s(ecto) is low compared to s for other items, due to the limited number of ways they are removed from the game (few players will craft multiple sets of obby armor/chaos gloves for a single character, and the only other real way to remove them are mistakes that most players will try to avoid: merching/trashing/deleting).

If one stipulates that there are more ectos in play than are being removed from play -- an assertion that is supported by their use as alternative currency, meaning that at least 1 ecto is in play and not intended to be removed from the game -- and that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE (p > 0 and tf > 0) is farming then:

r > s
r - s > 0

Then we can show that

v1(p) = lim (tf->t) v = (r - s) * p

By removing t and tf from the equation by carrying them to parity, we're left with a function that tells us that v1 can be increased by increasing r or p, or decreasing s.

The first is solely under ArenaNet's control. The latter are under player control. If we posit that s remains relatively stable (no new "ecto" sinks are added to the game and no one organizes a "merch your ectos" protest to stop its use as currency), and that ArenaNet does not alter the drop rate of ectos (not necessarily a safe assumption: see my editorial below).

Since we're assuming Anet's not going to jerk us around wrt drop rates, we've an (r-s) that can be considered, for all intents and purposes, constant.

That gives us

p*(r-s) = O(p) as p->infinity

Or the upper bound of the supply is set by the number of farmers so, with an infinite number of farmers (I bet anet would love those sales numbers! But this is theoretical, not applied), there is a potentially infinite supply of ectos.

** Puts nerd cap away**

Ironically, Anet (and, by extension, the powertraders and hoarders they were catering to) actually exacerbated the "ecto farming" problem they love to piss and moan about. Remember shortly after the SF buff when ectos plummeted to around 3k? There was a huge shitstorm with much wailing and gnashing of teeth that day.

So what did Anet do? They reset the prices and applied a price floor. This made the hoarders very happy.

It also made the ecto farmers very happy because, now, overfarming would never again lead to the price dropping below profitable levels. Had the left well enough alone, the price would have dropped, the farming would have tapered off, people would buy the ectos from the trader, the price would have risen, repeat. It was self-correcting, and they removed that aspect of it.

The funniest part of the whole thing is that, with the Dhuum update and the SF and 600/smite nerfs, speed clears were crushed (and, as many predicted, quickly adapted) but many ecto farming builds were unaffected, particularly since they don't care about "clearing".

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 22, 2010, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Interesting stats. Working on Skill hunter (all 3) at the moment. Of the 100 plus bosses I've killed since yesterday, the best drop was an old school blue. No greens. No golds.

If that isn't straight up pathetic BS, I don't know what is. I've been playing RPG's etc since the early 80's, and that is without doubt the absolute worst drop rates I have ever seen in any game, full stop.

Interesting indeed. By those odds, it's easier to go farm ecto than go farm greens..

reaper with no name · Mar 22, 2010, 01:11 PM // 13:11

As others have noted, this idea is self-defeating.

The reason that drops aren't worth anything is that they have been overfarmed. If you increase the drops, then there will be even more of those items flooding the market, making them even more worthless. In the end, all it will do is increase inventory cluttering.

Kaleban · Mar 22, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

In all your obscenities you failed to consider the economics of the situation. which exits if you want them to exist or not.

Increasing drop rates or rewards at all will drop the price so the value in gold of your increased drops/rewards will remain the same as the "lesser" rewards given now. By increasing supply more demand will be fed... when demand lowers price will decrease because there will be more competition to sell your drop/reward. The only reason items are worth what they are is due to the degree of difficulty they are to obtain. Which keeps this game alive (kinda) because it spurs competitiveness.

Whats proposed here is almost to give people everything they want, which would make everything nearly valueless... making gold worthless... destroying the economy... and when most players have everything no competitiveness will exist... so whats the point?

So maintaining a good game economy is not "elitist" its common since.

Get educated not emo.

/facepalm

Do you understand how the stock market works, or ANY economy for that matter? Why a $1 bill has its value, and why it can be exchanged for something?

Its because people put faith in it, and the agency running it as a means of currency, in this case the government.

As others have noted in this thread and others, there is an infinite supply of items. If every player in GW spontaneously decided to do naught but farm ectos, very quickly prices would drop below 100g without a price floor.

But what you continue to fail to understand is, I don't give a care in the world to the economy. Its bland icing on a stale cake. If the economy evaporated tomorrow, the game would continue on, monsters could still be killed, quests completed, Shiro fought etc., etc. Yes, there ARE those who see the game as a means to an end, the end being e-wealth/power trading, but what makes that sad and pathetic is its solely within the confines of the game, so it makes no impact beyond that context.

It is perhaps one of the things I liked about WoW, the binding system that prevented the high end stuff from being traded, which forced players to adventure for loot, rather than barter in a marketplace. You had an economy (and Auction House) for many things, but the best stuff (the equivalent of high end weapon skins, FoW armor, etc.) could only be had by going out and killing something. This minimized the impact of an economy, and made it about the game.

To reiterate, the "economy" is one of the things wrong with GW, and I'm not talking prices and supply fluctuations, I'm talking in terms of the concept itself.

@EragonSorcerer, I'm absolutely NOT against farming in any way, I myself farm on occasion. What I am against is the direction the game has gone, and ANet's handling of the situation, which has placed a large focus on the false economy and virtual e-wealth, at the expense of the FUN of the game. If they re-balanced loot scaling and drops so that the average player had more of an incentive to do difficult missions and such, then more people would PLAY more of the game. Of course, obsessive farmers would farm and become more rich than before, but if GW has re-balanced loot as I mention, this would have less of an impact since the relative value is much lower.

Again, I understand many on this forum have strong opinions, I myself would like to see GW reinvigorated and have more hope for GW2. Its ironic that a community that hated SF and SC/farmers and clamored for changes to make farming and e-wealth less accessible to average players is adamantly against changes to the treasure system that would shake up the economy and make farming less attractive from the outset. Perhaps this community just doesn't understand basic logic?

Neo Atomisk · Mar 22, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

@OPs original idea: there's barely any grind required to get obby.

please go play other MMOs before complaining about how a reward that is a purely cosmetic and is a badge for how much one has grinded takes a long time to get.

Kaleban · Mar 22, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

@OPs original idea: there's barely any grind required to get obby.

please go play other MMOs before complaining about how a reward that is a purely cosmetic and is a badge for how much one has grinded takes a long time to get.

Again, this idea is not about Obsidian armor. Try reading. Also, let me know when you get your FoW armor after one run through UW and FoW, 'kay? Oh wait, you're saying you have to repeatedly do these areas to get the materials, or that you have to repeatedly do other actions to build up the cash the pay for the materials? And you're saying that's not grind?

As my point of BALANCING REWARDS seems to fly over everyone's head, I guess its futile to try and make a forum community renowned for its stubborness to see sense.

The point is NOT to make all cosmetic fluff instantly available to the player, the point is to balance rewards in all areas to make the areas attractive to play, such that the impetus to play the game is not solely restricted to Chaos Plains farming and speed clears.

If dungeons and random areas rewards were increased, say GUARANTEED green drops from end chests, rather than the more likely scenario of a couple of rare crafting mats, or adding an extremely low chance for ecto drops in the rest of Tyria/Cantha/Elona, then players would not be as inclined to repetitively hit up areas like UW, knowing that over time and with much less grind they could acquire what they wanted by playing naturally through the game.

Guild Wars was supposed to be anti-grind, but has degenerated into a grindfest more mindless than any other MMO I've ever played or seen (with the possible exception of FFOnline), and with the grind reward being cosmetic skins or useless titles (with an unknown sequel benefit) the game is even WORSE off. By spreading the wealth and making the drops and various areas more attractive, its possible to reinvigorate the playerbase and the game itself.

I'd much rather play through a mission or quest than raptor farm for example, but in terms of reward vs. time investment, the rewards of raptor farming far outstripped what I would receive in an 8-player group. The reward ratio for both should be the same, such that you would receive the same rewards (or nearly so) for doing either, making farming less attractive and the gameplay more interesting.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 22, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Pretty much the only rewards that need to be looked at are stuff like reputation points (a HM mission giving you 150 rep points for repeating it!?), faction gains (20k faction for VQing an area when the title maxes at 10 mil!?) and the lack of drunk/sweet/party drops.

Because no money in the world will max out my Luxon or the Asura title. (Sure, I could use that money and buy runs - but if I am not playing the game, I might as well REALLY not play the game.)

Pretty much this.

The whole "I SHOULD GET MORE ECTOS!" thing is just stupid. Nothing is "rewarding" in this game. Have an Obsidian Edge? Good for you, I have a collector item that does just as much, or possibly more damage since it is customized.

I'll never understand people who play the game, and do things in game, for the sole purpose of getting gold so they can buy a weapon that they could have gotten for 5 collector items aside from a usually shitty looking skin.